How can we as a community get our voice heard with the devs regarding grind?

[AirOnG]

UAS with no ladder would be pointless and would not foster competition.

[Zorlag]

Coming from PvP oriented game (UT2k4) I understand why guilds who like competitive gaming are frustrated. I bet they believe entire PvE part of the game to be superfluous just like in FPS games single-player portion is disposable entertainment and part where you play against other humans is the real game. I feel the same way myself.

Whole "unlocking" thing is just a way to make people play PvE even if they don't feel like it. I for one don't understand it, what does Anet care what portion of the game people like to play? This is just driving people back in to games where gaming is more or less in equal terms from the first minutes. After all, PvE players are not hurt by PvP portion of the game being fully open to everyone. PvE player will never have snowballs chance in hell against dedicated PvP'r team if playing field is even simply because he doesn't have the dedication nor motivation to learn that portion of the game.

And if you wonder why competitive players are so serious about these things, it's very often that it's not "just a game" to them, it's a lifestyle and serious hobby. They play to win not for fun (winning or playing tough match is the fun). These people spend hours setting up correct skills and equipment for their character so that it perfectly complements their team and then play lots of practice matches to test if it works. They do it because they want to and feel that it's worth their time unlike playing PvE.

By the way, if you think competitive people are bit odd by demanding equal playing field from the start, you might be apalled to hear that things like frames per second rate your computer puts out or your connection latency (aka ping) are points of contention on competitive tourneys. If people have to deal with unequal chances in the game as well it just won't work. In Europe hub of competitive gaming is www.clanbase.com (there are other sites too, CB is just most established one) if you are interested in finding out how hardcore competitive community works. Match reports are quite a read sometimes...

[GlassShadow]

BE|Dac and Zorlag have summed this up correctly in view to skills, pve and pvp.

This setup will only drive many serious gaming clans away from the game, like I know it already has, it won't surprise me if there is no change in the design that the expansions won't sell nearly as well.

The way it is setup now, guild wars is a compromise on roleplaying and compeditive play and whilst can deliver a fun experience it doesn't achieve either best, why bother when other games will fulfil both experiences better? A pity since the game could do both much better with the base it is already built on.

Just how I seen it, I don't really care, there are always (other) games to play

[Perishiko ReLLiK]

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Note that you just voted the cardinal rule of my thread, Perishiko ReLLiK. No discussion about whether or not there is "grind" in this game or whether it should be in. This thread is for those who want the UAS button reimplemented. Please be civil and adult about this and respect the confines of the discussion.

That said, I'll acquiesce a bit and answer your request.

To get runes for all classes for full experimentation in the game, you have to do extremely repetitive actions for very long periods of time after "beating" the game. They have also consistently nerfed the ability to farm to increase the time investment necessary (Riverside and now flesh golems).

Now, no more discussion about whether or not there is grind in this game or how you feel about it. This thread is not for that type of discussion. This is for those who have already made up their mind and want the UAS button reimplemented.

Lazarous, although a petition may seem futile, it might be one of the only options we have. With no official forums or way to contact the devs, that's the only thing I can think of that can actually show the size and extent of the people who feel a certain way. It seems the devs are underestimating the size and beliefs of the competitive community of Guild Wars.

I am sorry, i just don't see item aquiring to be a "Grind" topic.. it's something that should take a while in the game... Although they did make a drastic change in farming (Which i noticed from the hill giants : ( i still wouldn't mention this as a grind topic like that.... i would mention it as a "drops" topic, in where you think more drops should be coming down... And that's something i TOTALY agree on, because it's what accounts for a stable economy, and TOTALY equaled pvp...

[Jia Xu]

i have spent no time at all grinding for items/skills/gear etc. (although some of my guildmates have) and yet my guild sees me as one of the best monks there are in the guild, and we can consistently win HoH if we have the right people online. it doesnt take too much effort to make good builds for HoH and PvP, and if you want to gain elite skills, take skills that are designed to keep you moving quickly and keep you alive - i got all the skills i need very quickly, and i think the unlocking increases the gametime i will play by a massive amount, as once i have finished all the missions (I haven't quite yet) i'm gonna see how many skills i can get, and maybe i will aim to unlock all monk skills, for example. It's an aspect to the game that a lot of people out there enjoy, and i think its a very good thing indeed. just my two pence on the subject.

[Mountain Man]

I have never seen this question conclusively answered:

Do "grinders" really have a genuine advantage in PvP solely because of the extra gear they've acquired and skills they've unlocked, or is it because they've put more time into the game and are thus inherently more skilled than other players?

To test this, take two teams of skillful players. Have one team use stock PvP characters and let the other use their fully tricked characters. Play five rounds and note which team has the most wins. Then have them switch roles with the former team using tricked out characters and the latter using stock. Play five more rounds. If after both rounds the team with the tricked out characters wins a majority of the time then it would seem that items and skills are the deciding factor. If, on the other hand, both teams are evenly matched no matter which characters they're using then we'll know that player skill is the more important.

Unfortunately, nobody in the player community has taken the time to conduct such a test, so I don't see how anybody can conclusively say that "grinders" have an unfair advantage. On the other hand, I can almost guarentee that ArenaNet has conducted such tests during in-house testing, so it's unlikely they'll bow to the wishes of uninformed players.

[AirOnG]

I have never seen this question conclusively answered:
Do "grinders" really have a genuine advantage in PvP solely because of the extra gear they've acquired and skills they've unlocked, or is it because they've put more time into the game and are thus inherently more skilled than other players?

I am willing to bet that a majority of the grinders in this game are dedicated PvPers. In teams of equal skill level, those with better equipment will simply win. If they're uneven skill, then it'd depend on the equipment and the skill gap. The actual act of using x combinations of abilities on y mobs for dozens of hours does not make you actually more skillful in the game and simply gives you an uneven playing field simply because you did the extremely unskillful timesink.

Stock PvP templates with no mods or acquired skills will simply get dominated by people with everything in the game unless the skill gap is large.

Unfortunately, nobody in the player community has taken the time to conduct such a test, so I don't see how anybody can conclusively say that "grinders" have an unfair advantage

It's a simple intellectual exercise to see that having more abilities and runes and weapon mods than another player is an unfair advantage and is an unlevel playing field.

[Mormegil]

On a simple basis of common sense, it is obvious that Elite Skills do bring advantages. That said, it doesnt mean youre not competitive if you dont have them, or if you dont have them all. G vs G implies that every team should exploit their characters and every little "plus", even the slightest, is a must. But then again, were talking about Valandor, Clan St or Negative Zero or little less. If any of us wanted to reach those peaks, he should put a lot of time in learning tactics and strategies anyway. He should know his character/s perfectly, know what counters what, and so on.
The fact is, anyone could be fairly competitive even without them

I really dont understand the meaning of this thread. I respect every opinion, of course, even the most unpopular one, but things like these make me think that some communities are incredibly ungrateful and blind.

[AirOnG]

On a simple basis of common sense, it is obvious that Elite Skills do bring advantages. That said, it doesnt mean youre not competitive if you dont have them

It means you're on an unlevel playing field. An unlevel playing field simply because of the rules of the game (with the exception of handicaps) is not a good competitive game.

I am getting tired of hearing this argument:
"If this game was about skill, then you should be able to defeat good teams even though you have less skills and equipment than they do!"
That argument is just such an obvious non sequiter to me. If someone really wants me to explain the flaw I will. Before I do, actually try to think why that argument is flawed.

Another bad argument:
"The grind in other MMORPGs is so much more than in Guild Wars! You should be thankful for what you have, ingrate!"
It does not matter whether or not the grind is minimally comparative. It still takes dozens and dozens of hours that many PvPers don't have the will or time to invest. Grind is an extremely repetitive action repeated for long durations of time. It is not doing the PvE missions. It's going out and farming x mob with y skill combination for dozens of hours.

Another bad argument:
"You don't HAVE to go out and grind! You can compete just perfectly fine with PvP templates!"
Those PvPers who have done the necessary evils (simply because they have more free time to dedicate rather than due to actual skill) will be playing with a huge advantage. A largely unlevel playing field is not the mark of a good competitive game.

Another bad argument:
"You shouldn't have everything just handed to you on a silver platter!"
Most proponents of the unlock all system only want it for the PvP side of the game. This unlocking would not influence the PvE side at all. If it doesn't influence PvE at all, why are you against it? Also, having all the skills and equipment means it's a level playing field which is crucial to a competitive game. A largely unlevel playing field is not the mark of a good competitive game.

[Mountain Man]

See? That's all I ever get whenever I ask that question: speculation and hypotheticals. I'm looking for hard data, actual in-game tests that conclusively prove that "grinders" have an advantage for no other reason than having the "best" skills and equipment.

Until I see such proof, I'm going to remain unconvinced.

[PieXags]

I think I'm going to curl up in the corner and cry, because that's all there's left to do when you've got yet another one of these threads. Christ a valid argument is one thing, but a valid argument being debated time and time...and time, again, is crap.

I guess I'll just sit here and pray.

[AirOnG]

Mountain Man, how about a top guild (which would consist mostly of grinders/farmers) against another top guild with just the pvp stock templates w/ no runes/abilities obtained/weapon mods. They'd be of comparative skill level. One has grinded and the other probably has but will just fight using pvp stock templates. I don't think that the test will actually have to be conducted to know that the stock template guild will get obliterated. The stock builds are pretty gimped in terms of customizability and the skills they possess.

[Lazarous]

I'm looking for hard data, actual in-game tests that conclusively prove that "grinders" have an advantage for no other reason than having the "best" skills and equipment.

*blinks* ooooohkay. Obviously simply looking at max rank attributes with and without grinding (as be|dac did) isn't hard data that shows an imbalance. Obviously the point of build flexibility to deal with available teams isn't hard data.

This would be less amusing if it didn't come several posts after a mathematical explanation of why superior runes alone give teams 10-25% advantages in their spell power.

[Loviatar]

Originally Posted by Zorlag

By the way, if you think competitive people are bit odd by demanding equal playing field from the start, you might be apalled to hear that things like frames per second rate your computer puts out or your connection latency (aka ping) are points of contention on competitive tourneys.

i am a pve person who is willing to live and let live.

would you be willing to answer a possibly stupid to the pvp community question?

it is in reference to the above

if a person had a lower FPS say 45 compared to anothers 145 FPS
and his ping was double the higher FPS person would he honestly be considered at a real disadvantage?

this is an honest question for information and not any attempt to troll

if somehow you consider it insulting i apologize in advance

[AirOnG]

Originally Posted by Loviatar

if a person had a lower FPS say 45 compared to anothers 145 FPS
and his ping was double the higher FPS person would he honestly be considered at a real disadvantage?

He would be considered at an extreme disadvantage. In a competitive LAN setting, this would be extremely unacceptable. In other venues and leagues, it's an unfortunate circumstance of life that everyone is not on an even playing field in terms of hardware. There's a point where better hardware has an extremely minimal advantage (i.e. 130 fps over 100 or just 30 ms less ping), and it can be practically called a level playing field.

I'm going to preempt your claim that you have to "grind" in real life to get better hardware and an advantage and that this is somehow applicable to guild wars in some nonsense fallacy of logic. There's a certain baseline of hardware required for a game such as an fps where having better hardware is really a minimal advantage. Tweaking out that last 10 extra fps is a very minimal advantage and is practically not worth considering.

[Mormegil]

AirOnG, now I will explain EXTENSIVELY why this game has no grind.

With all due respect, I'm afraid your argument is flawed. Take me as an example.
I'm a 24 yrs old guy who's gonna finish the university exams, I still have some time to spare, but not so much. Since I was a quite skilled and trained Call of Duty sniper, I played many official competitions in Esl (Electronic Sports League) with my clan. Clan Wars were on a pretty high level, one bad shot means youre dead 90% of the times. Sometimes we won, sometimes we lost: on a scale of 1-10, we probably were around the 7. I had to play quite a lot to be competitive, but it didnt interfere with my life at all.

In GW, you have 8 slots for skills. This way, Elite Skills of any kind won't unbalance the fights so much: practicing and playing with your guild as a well organized team WILL. Because of the sheer number of skills, what major guilds look for is adaptability. Forget about the typical 13 yrs old W/MO: he will be owned everytime.
Looking for Elite Skills is a necessary evil only if you plan to be in the Olimpus of Guild Wars. If you dont, you just have to practice and choose your skills wisely. The time spent for Elite Skills or Runes whatsoever by the greatest guilds is similar to the time spent by the 16 yrs old members of a major Call of Duty clan. It's the time spent to be the best of the best, which is more or less proportional in any game. I think it's insane to waste all that time on a videogame, but thats my personal opinion.

If you need some kind of test, I can assure you I win roughly 50% of the PvPs (depending on my team, of course), and 70% of the time with my guild. It is obvious that we 'd be slaughtered by any guild in the top 100.

Hope I made things clearer, and please, for God's sake, stop whining...

[Loviatar]

[QUOTE=AirOnG]
I'm going to preempt your claim that you have to "grind" in real life to get better hardware and an advantage and that this is somehow applicable to guild wars in some nonsense fallacy of logic. QUOTE]

if you go over my posts i think you will find an absence of cheap aftershots like that

i had not considered making a comment like that or i would have been upfront with it as part of the original question.

just to set the record straight on that

[Zorlag]

Originally Posted by Loviatar

i am a pve person who is willing to live and let live.

would you be willing to answer a possibly stupid to the pvp community question?

it is in reference to the above

if a person had a lower FPS say 45 compared to anothers 145 FPS
and his ping was double the higher FPS person would he honestly be considered at a real disadvantage?

this is an honest question for information and not any attempt to troll

if somehow you consider it insulting i apologize in advance

Very large disadvantage. In Clanbase cups I have played having to play like that is called "pingrape". Even if better equipped/pinging player wins fairly it will be looked down as dishonorable game, so it's a real lose-lose situation. Computer specs are up to the player themselves so that is not thought to be a good excuse for losing even if it contributed but ping disadvantage is a serious matter and most online competitions have rules that dictate how to pick a server and how much disadvantage is acceptable (often not much, in Clanbase it's 20% difference for example).

And no I don't find it insulting, it's hard to understand how competitive people think if you haven't tried it yourself.

[Synncial77]

If it were feasable, the answer to this all would be making UAS available as a specialized PvP only character.

This would instantly stop the debate. True, it would cause "segregation" but I'd say there is already a pretty strong divide between PvE and PvP only players.

It's so simple. Leave the current system intact where you can make a PvP only character AND travel through the PvE game to augment your PvP characters.

Then, have the UAS PvP only characters with their own ladder and unable to compete or trade with the "normal" characters.

And there it would be, a normal server and a server made just for people who want to hop in and play PvP without any disadvantages.

I mean, I'm not a big PvPer (although I enjoy it on occasion) and would love for this option to be present. This way the "big league" elite players will be drawn to the UAS option leaving the "normal" server with less one-sided PvP matches in the tournament - since the UAS PvP would be seen as the "real" tournament to all the PvP people.

[Loviatar]

Zorlag
thank you for the courteous answer